Zero Fret... the good/bad/ugly?

[Funkjazzaxe]

Hello!  I have been contemplating the purchase of a Vigier Excalibur for a long time.  I love the design of the guitar- they seem like top shelf instruments.  I have owned many great guitars (Valley Arts, PRS, Parker Fly, etc) but have always wanted a Vigier.  

My concern is the zero fret.  There seems to be many examples listed on this forum and others pertaining to the zero fret quickly wearing out and causing issues.  The official response from Vigier appears to be acknowledging the issue as something that you just live with and replace the fret when needed.  Seems some people have had the zero fret develop grooves in the matter of a few months.  This seems unacceptable to me, but perhaps this isn't the norm?

Those of you who play Vigier day in, day out as a workhorse instrument- what is your experience with the zero fret?  How long does it last and how difficult is it to obtain a new zero fret (USA)?  I do appreciate the design since it is user serviceable, but don't want to have to be constantly needing to replace it- or living with the strings popping and hanging up on a worn one on such an expensive and otherwise flawless instrument.

I do like the idea of the zero fret and appreciate the benefits, but how does the Vigier design handle the rigors of the real world?  Thanks for any insight you can give!

 

 

[Ben]

I have asked DJ, the US manager to answer you when he is back at work, as he can answer such things as supply and cost in the US.

 

For the zero fret, they are always in use, so can wear out, but they are inexpensive and easy to replace. We designed them to be removed and a new one popped in. I play all my guitars a lot and only replaced 1 zero fret (after nearly 8yrs use inc. UK tours).

 

One of the biggest problems people misunderstand is the relationship between the nut and zero fret. Most issues are nothing to do with zero fret and actually the nut. The 'ping' you may have read about, is usually the sound of the string catching on the nut. This can be easily fixed with a quick file, also it is most often caused by changing the string gauges (our nuts are cut for specific gauges - 9-46 on most models). Again, this is something that can easily be fixed as our nut can be swapped out as fast as the zero fret and a new one popped back in. No glue, no luthier or skill involved. In fact I once had my niece (10yrs old at the time and NO understanding of musical instruments at all) demonstrate this!! If it is just the string that has 'cut' into the nut, this is also easily fixed without changing the nut - as the nut is Teflon, it can be removed and (carefully) hit with a plastic hammer to 'push' the slot back together. It is another benefit of the material.

 

As I said, most often it is the above causes and lack of understanding - just as you might find on, for instance, a new car or with new technology, once you get your head around it you will not want to go back. I remember first seeing Vigier (around 1999) and their guitars with zero frets, being sceptical at the time (as it is not the norm to us guitars). As they were stocked in the retailer where I worked I had good opportunity to try them, I did not take me long to realise the benefits and purchase my first (of 5) - step forward to today and I would feel very uncomfortable to go back to a 'conventional guitar' without a zero fret  /10/90 neck etc. 

[Funkjazzaxe]

Thanks for the detailed response- I appreciate the insight.  I can see how over time the zero fret would wear out and I have no issues with occasional replacement.  I do like the design and think the improved action and consistency up and down the fretboard as a fair tradeoff for needing to occasionally replace the zero fret.  Even if the fret needed replaced once or twice a year this still wouldn't bother me too much, my concern sprouts from hearing of people having issues within weeks or months with strange pinging noises, etc.  Your explaination seems logical to me. 

Since the nuts are all cut specifically for .09's, how difficult is it to properly set the guitars up for .10's?  Does Vigier have any pre-prepped nuts available to install, or does the stock nut need dressed by a luthier?

Thanks again!

[VigierDJ]

Thanks for the detailed response- I appreciate the insight.  I can see how over time the zero fret would wear out and I have no issues with occasional replacement.  I do like the design and think the improved action and consistency up and down the fretboard as a fair tradeoff for needing to occasionally replace the zero fret.  Even if the fret needed replaced once or twice a year this still wouldn't bother me too much, my concern sprouts from hearing of people having issues within weeks or months with strange pinging noises, etc.  Your explaination seems logical to me. 

Since the nuts are all cut specifically for .09's, how difficult is it to properly set the guitars up for .10's?  Does Vigier have any pre-prepped nuts available to install, or does the stock nut need dressed by a luthier?

Thanks again!

Hey man, we have nuts pre-cut for 9s 10s and 11s ready to go. You can also have the one currently on your guitar re-cut by a luthier if that's easier for you. Like the zero fret, they pop in and out, so it's pretty easy either way.

The stock nut is 9-46, so getting a set of 10-46's on there isn't too terrible. In terms of setup, it's super simple, no neck adjustment, just replace/cut the nut and make sure your spring tension is where it needs to be. Then you're off to the races!

I'm thinking about making a video in the next couple weeks showing exactly how to do this. One of the most frequent questions I field when I explain the neck situation is "what happens when I change string guage?" the short answer is "basically nothing" but I'd like to go over bridge adjustment, too...

[Funkjazzaxe]

In general, are replacement zero frets and nuts readily available in the USA?  What is the approximate wait time for parts?  Also, what do nuts/zero frets cost (shipped)?  Would current zero frets/nuts fit older Vigier Excaliburs (~year 2000)?

Thanks again for the detailed responses, its great to see people involved in a company quickly answering questions.

DaveP

[VigierDJ]

Hey Dave,

Nuts are $14.99 + $5 shipping from France, zero frets are $19.99. Send me an email with your model and serial number and we'll make sure you get the part you need. These are always in stock and ready to go. Wait time is usually a couple days just to process the order and then however long it takes the mail to get from Grigny to your place. The only real exception is when French HQ is on break (which starts 7/24 fyi). 

My email is dj@vigierguitars.com don't hesitate to email me any time for anything Vigier related. I'm glad to see one of our instruments is living in Kentucky! 

[MJG]

I'm thinking about making a video in the next couple weeks showing exactly how to do this. One of the most frequent questions I field when I explain the neck situation is "what happens when I change string guage?" the short answer is "basically nothing" but I'd like to go over bridge adjustment, too...

 

Good idea DJ.

 

A sticky kind-of FAQ with videos/general maintenance tips on this forum would be a very good thing. There's already the zero-fret one on youtube. Keep everything in one place here.

 

Also because Vigier guitars are so efficient/user friendly (and because of the lack of truss rod) it wouldn't be too long winded. Perhaps just a video for each key part - zero fret, nut and bridge adjustments. And forum menebers could extend it with stringing/cleaning tips etc. It would be a thread to cover all you need to know as a Vigier owner :-)

[VigierDJ]

Good idea DJ.

 

A sticky kind-of FAQ with videos/general maintenance tips on this forum would be a very good thing. There's already the zero-fret one on youtube. Keep everything in one place here.

 

Also because Vigier guitars are so efficient/user friendly (and because of the lack of truss rod) it wouldn't be too long winded. Perhaps just a video for each key part - zero fret, nut and bridge adjustments. And forum menebers could extend it with stringing/cleaning tips etc. It would be a thread to cover all you need to know as a Vigier owner :-)

As long as I have the time and the camera in the next week or two, consider it done!

[MJG]

Nice one DJ look forward to it.One thing I've read as a possiblity to extended the life of a zero fret is to flip it over. It was either on this forum or another. What do you think about that Ben/DJ? I possibly see the merrit - the thinking being the treble strings will possibly "cut-in" more over time so if you flip it round you could get twice the life??I also think the "problem" could not be so bad now since Vigier changed to a hardened stainless material for the zero fret? Did this change actually happen? I think I recall from my research there was an initial stainless zero fret that people were complaining about wear issues then Vigier came out with a hardened version after that?

Also agree with Ben - think most of the problems people are experiencing will be that their nut just hasn't been cut 'cleanly' enough. I was noticing a "ping" just about a week into use of my G.V. Rock when bending notes on high E from about the 4th fret to around the 13th. Also on the low E when/if bending 1st/2nd/3rd fret. Lubed the nut/made sure no excess/straggling teflon was apparant and the ping/click is gone. I doubt the zero fret had anything to do with it. Just as a note I restrung my Rock last night and that's been over a years pretty regular use now and there is no actually serious wear on the zero fret. Just small marks/lines were the strings sit but nothing major. Certainly no sharp edges or deep gouges.

[VigierDJ]

Nice one DJ look forward to it.One thing I've read as a possiblity to extended the life of a zero fret is to flip it over. It was either on this forum or another. What do you think about that Ben/DJ? I possibly see the merrit - the thinking being the treble strings will possibly "cut-in" more over time so if you flip it round you could get twice the life??

[/quote]

Never tried this, can't speak to it. I *guess* it could add some life, but really all the strings cut in over time.

[quote]I also think the "problem" could not be so bad now since Vigier changed to a hardened stainless material for the zero fret? Did this change actually happen? I think I recall from my research there was an initial stainless zero fret that people were complaining about wear issues then Vigier came out with a hardened version after that?

[/quote]

We switched over to stainless steel in 2011 and have been using a hardened stainless zero fret since. Sadly, the nuts do still wear. I think it's a matter of it being the only nut under *constant* pressure from the strings. 

[quote]

Also agree with Ben - think most of the problems people are experiencing will be that their nut just hasn't been cut 'cleanly' enough. I was noticing a "ping" just about a week into use of my G.V. Rock when bending notes on high E from about the 4th fret to around the 13th. Also on the low E when/if bending 1st/2nd/3rd fret. Lubed the nut/made sure no excess/straggling teflon was apparant and the ping/click is gone. I doubt the zero fret had anything to do with it. Just as a note I restrung my Rock last night and that's been over a years pretty regular use now and there is no actually serious wear on the zero fret. Just small marks/lines were the strings sit but nothing major. Certainly no sharp edges or deep gouges.

There ya go! 

[Ben]

it is not official to flip the zero fret around, but I can see how that would work to prolong the life of the fret. It is good practice to lube the nut, thus helping to eliminate any friction, the teflon is like butter, but even so, the string can 'bite' into it - see my other suggestion using a plastic hammer too. Even with these things, the implementation of a zero fret has so many benefits, I would not like to go back to a guitar without one myself. 

[djsaysauce]

Gibson's new 2015 range of les pauls have zero frets, interestingly. Will fender too?

[djsaysauce]

Just changed zero fret on Excalibur. No tools. Really simple.

[leon13]

Hey guys,

I recently noticed a noise from either the zero fret or the teflon nut of my guitar.  It must be from the zero fret considering that the guitar model is from the year 2007.

Here are some videos uploaded with the "popping" sound:

https://youtu.be/Dd0MQ5uDMOg

https://youtu.be/ifQ02NN8t1Q

and a photo of the zero fret: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R20vRuvr7MLhqr-X398l39BO7F4Ud7zy

A wear is visible on the 1st string area of the zero fret.

Do you think replacing the zero fret is a good solution?  What tool can I use to remove the current zero fret?

Thanks

[yuri1973]

my suggestions would be (in sequence):

1) place a piece of foam behind the nut in order to dampen the pinging sound (that's for free. at a cost, buy the Vigier dampener, a Gruvgear fretwrap, etc...)

2) if you're not happy enough with the result of step 1, try sanding/polishing the zero fret to soften/remove the grooves (very slightly, if you sand too much and lower too much the fret's height, you may end up having fret buzz on open strings)

3) if not successful (or afraid) with step 2, order a new zero fret from Vigier (you'll need to specify model/year as there seems to be a couple versions ... so better make sure you get the "most correct" one). not sure what the differences have been (fret tang dimensions, crown height, width, ... it's a mistery which Vigier should disclose)

Also, regardless of which path you take, it seems lubing the nut grooves may also help. 

 

 

[Ben]

Could be the string catching in the nut too.

 

There are 2 types of Zero Fret, standard or the newer segmented Zero Frets.

 

We like to double check model/year to make sure customers receive the correct replacement for their guitars. Good luck, should be very easy to change Zero Fret and/or Teflon Nut.

[leon13]

my suggestions would be (in sequence):

1) place a piece of foam behind the nut in order to dampen the pinging sound (that's for free. at a cost, buy the Vigier dampener, a Gruvgear fretwrap, etc...)

2) if you're not happy enough with the result of step 1, try sanding/polishing the zero fret to soften/remove the grooves (very slightly, if you sand too much and lower too much the fret's height, you may end up having fret buzz on open strings)

3) if not successful (or afraid) with step 2, order a new zero fret from Vigier (you'll need to specify model/year as there seems to be a couple versions ... so better make sure you get the "most correct" one). not sure what the differences have been (fret tang dimensions, crown height, width, ... it's a mistery which Vigier should disclose)

Also, regardless of which path you take, it seems lubing the nut grooves may also help. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions!  The string dampener looks nice, I'm thinking of getting it if it's available and easy to apply.  In the video I posted, I have already applied a lubricant from "Big Bends".

I tried the GruvGear fretwrap but it's not effective relieving the clicking noise.  I will try to sand the fret and see how it goes.

Longterm, I think it will be good to replace the fret or the nut since it has gotten some wear from the previous owner.  

The zero fret from this guitar has some spacing between the fret and the wood.  I'll send Ben a PM about the shipment and availability of the model I need.